In Conversation: Justinian Huang on His Debut Novel and Industry Trends

by Heesun Park

The Emperor and the Endless Palace marks Justinian Huang’s debut as a novelist. An epic queer romance, the story follows two men whose intertwined fates transcend both time and space. We find them in 4 BCE as an ambitious courtier and a young emperor, in 1740 as a lonely innkeeper and mysterious visitor, and in present-day Los Angeles as a college student and beautiful stranger who cannot shake the feeling they’ve met before. Tackling these three distinct storylines at once, Justinian grounds his drama and erotica with real heart and intimacy—marking his voice as one that creates impossible-to-forget page-turners.

I had the opportunity to speak with Justinian about his personal and creative inspirations behind The Emperor and the Endless Palace, as well as his plans for the rest of the series. 

Prior to writing novels, Justinian was a 15-year career film executive at studios such as Sony Pictures Animation and DreamWorks Pearl. We also discussed how some of the ongoing trends in the film industry relate to the publishing industry.

The middle and ending pages of The Emperor and the Endless Palace go to this richly fantastical and really intense place. You're somebody who studied screenwriting in college and you also work in film development. What were the differences in articulating yourself as an author versus a screenwriter? What was that transition like and what type of writing do you prefer?

You know, I've never been a professional screenwriter. I dabbled in it when I was much younger. When I was in college, I started to sneak out of class and be an intern for a producer named Lynda Obst. This was back in 2007, which is a long time ago. But my family was pretty terrified about me becoming a writer.

They were like, “If you're going to work in Hollywood . . . you're going to work as a Suit. This is much more reliable.” So I took their advice. I was like, I don't know if languishing in a Starbucks trying to write my first script sounds very fun either. And I had a lot of support and I worked my way up to being the VP of Sony [and] Head of Development at DreamWorks in Shanghai.

So I did find some success as a Suit . . . Between screenwriting and novel writing, I would say I much prefer novel writing, even though it's a lot more words, it's a lot more work to write a novel. [laughs] 

For me to talk a little meta about novels versus screenwriting—something that I discovered later on in my publishing journey is that a novelist owns 100% of their IP [intellectual property]—which is very rare.

If a screenwriter thinks of a great idea and they write a screenplay based on that great idea, mostly and usually, when they option it to a studio, they've given away a lot of the ownership of this idea. . . . When you write a novel and a publisher publishes it, the publisher does not take any of the ownership. They only have the right to publish a novel. So writing a novel—it's so much work. But you also know that you're writing something that you will own fully and it's part of your legacy as a writer. So that's something I very much enjoyed. 

Now, when it comes to your actual question, something that I took from being a film executive working with screenwriters so much, was that a great screenplay, especially in animation, is defined by being excellently structured. . . . A well-structured screenplay usually begets a movie that the audience leaves the theater or gets up from their couch feeling like they've digested a full, very fulfilling, entertaining meal. Right? Because it sort of answers all the questions or it provides a conclusion to the film that makes the audience feel like, “Oh, I watched something that's meaningful.” Right?

Because I have three different timelines in my book, it was kind of a structural game of Tetris. I had to really be very mindful about the way I structured every timeline, making sure that they all had their own unique stories. But, at the same time, all the stories thematically and physically wove together by the end of the book. And I don't think I could have done that had I not just worked as a film exec for, oh my gosh, like 15 years—more than 15 years.

One of the things that makes The Emperor and the Endless Palace stand out is the fact that “spice” is a key marketing point. The book and film industries, you probably know, are experiencing opposite trends where the book industry is open to spice, while film and film consumers are kind of going in the opposite direction. They want to shy away from sex scenes altogether. So I would love to hear your perspective on this divergence as somebody who straddles both realms. I know that you worked for DreamWorks and—

No sex scenes in DreamWorks movies. [laughs]

Absolutely not. [laughs]

So to take a little step back . . . I was working for DreamWorks in China from 2015 to 2020. And when I first started conceiving this book, I didn't know that spicy books would become a thing in 2023, 2024. The word “spicy” didn't exist at all. 

The reason why I wanted to write my characters to be very erotic and to be very sexually confident—even swaggering—is because I just wanted to write Asian men who were these qualities. Because I think often, especially in Western media, Asian men are depicted as sexually timid or even desexualized.

But that's not my experience at all. You know, I say this a lot—they tell you to write what you know and I know sexy Asian men. [laughs] My book is inspired by men that I dated when I was living in China. So I really wanted to pay homage to the truth about Asian male sexuality, which is why my book became so spicy.

Now, as for why there seems to be a divergence—and I never thought of it this way until you just said this, Heesun. That is a very interesting phenomenon—the experience of watching a film and the experience of reading a book actually are very different. There is something very personal about listening to a book on audio in the privacy of your AirPods or reading a book [and] just turning the page. . . . There is something so much more intimate about writing a book that really does beget or at least create a conducive environment for spiciness, right? 

I also think that it has a lot to do with the fact that the Gen Z generation [have] really adopted the romance genre. I think it's because of the analog quality of books. They grew up staring at screens and they just love the feeling of turning physical pages of a book. 

My book, when it came out, ended up on an indie bestseller list. And that was something I was really proud of, because that means that people went to indie bookstores and bought my book. Which tells you that they wanted a physical copy of this book that they could hold, that they could really have a physical relationship with.

To talk about the film industry in general, there seems to be this interesting concept that [Hollywood wants] to create content that appeals to America as a whole. I think that for a long time the perception was that Hollywood was creating content for the coasts. And now that they're saying “Oh, we want to cater to all Americans,” I think that that is starting to soften spiciness in general in films. 

It's an interesting trend. But I think [with] the prevalence of spice in books, Hollywood is going to start catching up as they start to realize. 

You know, every time I'm in a meeting now with execs and I tell them how much Gen Z loves romance and how they are taking over middle-aged women as readers of romance, it always surprises them. So I think that books will lead the way, ironically, and I'm very excited to see that. 

As a quick follow-up to that, you probably know, but IP (intellectual property) is really big in the film industry right now. Do you want to see The Emperor and the Endless Palace live out its life as a book or would you be open to the possibility of adaptation, going after the conversation that we just had? Of course, it means that many scenes may have to be adjusted.

The razor blade scene? 

Yeah. [laughs] 

[laughs] So, to answer this question carefully, there are some interesting conversations going on right now about the book. [But] it's too early to say anything. 

You know, having worked in the film industry as long as I had, I know that the very important thing for me as a novelist now is to understand that if I'm lucky enough for anything I write to be adapted, I need to let go of it as a book. And it needs to exist on its own as a movie or television show or podcast. I've learned, having been an exec who has adapted books, that you need to trust the partners you have.

Now this whole thing about IP being the name of the game right now, I'm not sure where it's coming from exactly.

I really miss [seeing] ideas that are wholly created just for the medium it first pops up [in]. For instance, like Everything Everywhere All At Once, you know. That's an idea that sprang from those directors and was delivered wholly, firstly, as a piece of cinematic artistry. And I think there’s a reason why it stands out so much, right? When you think about movies like Parasite as well, [they’re stories] also from the imagination of the screenwriter and the director. 

I think that the number one thing is that the [film] industry ebbs and flows and does not like to take risks. They often look around them to see what's working. 

I think the industry is starting to take note of what's happening in books. Because I don't think anyone's expected Gen Z to hop on to books the way they have. And I think that they're starting to listen to it. And it's going to be interesting to see how that shifts things.

Now, that is going to be a huge influx of more IP for sure. But it's what type of IP, isn't it? It's not the IP that we traditionally think about when we think about IP, which is like huge Marvel properties. Right? We're talking about books about intimate human connection. So we'll see what springs from that for sure. We'll see what happens.

Note: The rest of this interview contains spoilers for the novel.

So I'm going to stop picking your brain as a film executive. My next question: In River, Calvin, and Joey’s story, we see River still choosing to chase after Joey despite experiencing a real connection with Calvin—somebody who isn't at all involved in River's past lifetimes. Do you think being fated to be with someone is the same thing as loving someone? Do you think River will ever be able to love again after the conclusion of your story?

I mean, I just got chills because that's actually one of the central questions that I tackle and will tackle throughout the series, which is that just because someone is your soulmate it doesn't mean it's the person you're meant to be with, you know? And this is a metaphor. This idea of these lovers reincarnating over and over again, it's a metaphor for just trying again with someone that you love and have lost.

My family's from Taiwan. In my late twenties, right as I was moving to China, I fell in love with this other Taiwanese boy. And for me, loving him was like a homecoming in a way, wasn't it? Because he's from my parents' motherland, you know? 

And our relationship was really tough. It was just us taking turns hurting each other, even though we loved each other. Now, would I say that this boy is one of my soulmates? Yes. But would I say that our relationship is not going to work? I would also say yes to that. 

I think that there is such a thing as your love for someone being too deep. So deep that you both fall in and drown. And whether that's the fate for Joey and River, I guess we'll have to find out. There's two more books planned and will hopefully be published, so we'll see what happens to them.

I introduced Calvin because—Calvin was originally just supposed to disappear after the Yellow Peril. He's introduced in the first chapter with River in the present-day timeline. He was supposed to disappear after that chapter, but I just had so much fun writing him. And, to be honest, his voice most naturally resembles my voice. 

Whenever it came to Calvin, I just wrote exactly how I would respond in that situation. So he became a good anchor point for me, which is why he says somewhat meta things like, I think he says to River at some point, “I don't want to be in a love story unless I'm the co-lead.” You know, it's probably me sort of coming out through Calvin.

I will say, though, I wake up every day now, like I said, to messages from people from all over the world—which is so crazy and fun—but the number one thing I get is, “How could you do that to Calvin?” [laughs]

So I feel sad that they're sad for Calvin. But I also feel like I accomplished what I wanted to accomplish because I did want to pose Calvin as a great alternative for River. And I also wanted to create Calvin as someone that was very loved, because I think that we all deserve a Calvin but we sometimes take Calvins for granted.

Definitely—Calvin was a favorite character for me, and not just because he's Korean. 

Mhm! You know, all my characters are amalgams of people in my life. My best friend is Korean and he is my biggest cheerleader. So I also stuck that little thread in there as well. But yes, Calvin. There's a lot of stuff that I cut. Like Calvin and River went to K-town and had an epic meal. I was like, “I love this scene because I go to K-town all the time with my best friend and eat epic Korean food.” But I was like,  “Ugh, it's not serving the story.” So I had to cut it. There were little things. But the thing is, people are really worried about like, “Oh my God, Calvin's gone.” Calvin will be back. Don't worry, he will be back. 

And just like everyone in the story, Calvin might have a few twists up his sleeve as well that are game-changing about the way you feel about him and River.

Oh, that's awesome. I'm so excited. So we are approaching the end time for the interview, so I guess I'll just jump to the last question that I have. What is the line or scene you're most proud of? I personally love “Now that I know he's out there, I might be lonely for the rest of this life.” I just thought its repetition was so powerful. So I'm just curious if there's a line or scene that really is close to your heart, that you're really proud of.

So that line that you just said—I was in love with a boy in college who was not a good match for me. I tend to just fall for people who aren't good matches for me. I think it comes across in my books. In this book particularly. That line I just took from a poem I wrote about him when I was 21. So I'm glad you like that line. It's a very old line that I’ve had a while in my repertoire. 

My favorite scene? There's a lot, but I have to say after the Fox Spirit says “Do you remember?” to the Innkeeper. The Innkeeper says “No,” the Fox Spirit disappears, and the Innkeeper then gets on his horse and rides into the wilderness as the sun and the moon dance over his head. I remember at that point, I had the Twilight soundtrack playing . . . and it just poured out of me because I just wanted—I don't know—that was like the pinnacle of romantic anguish and it just flowed out of me.

. . . .So I've always loved that chapter because I'm very critical about what I write. I think the writing of that chapter is very pretty. So I'm very proud.

I actually have one more question. This one is just very fun. So you obviously did a lot of research for this novel and you borrowed from the real lives of historical Chinese figures. And the political drama was amazing. It was intense. I could see it in my eyes. So I'm just wondering if you had any specific inspirations for the political drama or any historical dramas that you watched while writing it or that guided you through the writing process?

So growing up, I watched with my grandma the classic Chinese soap operas. 后宫·甄嬛传 is one of my favorites. You can actually watch it on Amazon Prime. It's called Empresses in the Palace. And it's just the ultimate backstabbing, concubine scheming, you know, like do-anything-to-get-the-attention-of-the-emperor sort of soap opera.

The thing about those Chinese palace dramas is that they're all about the brilliance of women. Because it's just about playing chess​​—women using their charm, their wits, and their beauty to further their agenda. To take a gay boy like Dong Xian and put him in that mix and have him play into—and, of course, to have him be batted around by the Emperor's Grandmother—[Chinese palace dramas were] where I got a lot of my inspiration from. 

I also got a lot of inspiration from Game of Thrones. My favorite scenes in Game of Thrones were the palace drama scenes. Like Cersei, Lady Olenna, you know, Margaery I think her name was—all those characters were my favorite characters because they were brilliant women. They were just in the palace. But what they did, their machinations, had far-reaching effects for all the lands. So I was very fascinated to play that and to take a gay boy, to plop him in the middle of that was a lot of fun, for sure.

I actually noticed the fact that you didn't use concubines in your palace drama, which I thought was a really interesting choice. I don't know much about Chinese historical dramas, but I do know Korean historical dramas. There are a lot of gay stories that are popular in Korea, like A Frozen Flower and The King and the Clown and they all involve, as you said, the mastery and the manipulation of women. 

Sure. You know, it was a matter of me just trying to make sure I didn't induce way too many characters. I had to limit how many characters I wanted. But in Book Two, there is a very fascinating woman that emerges in the Endless Palace that we have not met yet. So there's two very fascinating women, actually, that will emerge in Book Two. So I'm very excited for everyone to meet them. And my goodness. [laughs] 

There's some stuff that's going to go down in the Endless Palace because, you know, Book One is just the meet-cute, really. [In] the Endless Palace and in the present day with Joey and River—and Calvin—there's still a lot of stories to tell. So their journey is not over.

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer everything and for providing your insight. Congratulations on your debut again and I'm looking forward to that to your next release.

Thank you. Thank you. We should be announcing it probably in September, so we're pretty excited.

This interview has been edited for brevity & clarity.